For years the Tiffin Halloween Parade has been a NON-POLITICAL event. Candidates are not allowed to be in the parade. It has always been however, a well attended event. No other candidate standing for election this November 4 was in the parade.
Egbert, who couldn’t figure out the defense to John Barga’s courthouse lawsuit from the sounds of Nutter’s comments at Candidate’s Night, figured out how to get in the parade. He used the Victim Assistance Program. For the first time ever, the Victim Assistance Program was entered in the parade and Joonier, his wife, and their friends handed out “VICTIM” information. Of course, the handout included: “Ken Egbert, Jr. Seneca County Prosecutor” right under this pledge: “I promise to listen. to believe in you. to help you stay safe. to not judge you. to inform you of your options. to help victims of crime rebuilt their lives”. He also put Libra’s name on the handout and included at the bottom “***This handout was not paid for by Public expense***”. If he only used this type of creative effort in representing the county we’d have saved $140,000 on outside attorney fees. If he only used this type of creative effort, people in the Fostoria and Tiffin City Prosecutor’s office would not be screaming for change.
I will trust somebody to explain to me why the victim advocates office did not pay for the handout if the parade was truly a non-campaign event? I will trust somebody to explain why this is the first year ever for the victim’s to be in the parade–and don’t mention the election because Egbert would never use his position (or the Victim Assistance Program) for his political benefit?
Whoever was in charge of the parade let this one slip by. At least they put him towards the back of the parade.
Photo from: http://whitelees.blogspot.com/2007_10_01_archive.html
Filed under: Uncategorized
Makes you wonder how much LOWER the man will stoop to try to get votes.
Don’t worry there is still PLENTY of time before the election for him to remove all doubt.
At least he won’t have to wear a costume, he is scary enough already.
You know the other thing that I’m getting sick of with Joooonyer’s campaign? His insinuation that Derek DeVine has done something wrong by representing a few criminal defendants in the past.
This identical gutter politics reared its ugly head in a statewide race this year between candidates for Ohio Attorney General. The President of the Ohio State Bar Association, Gary Leppla, responded with a press release, which I am copying below.
You can — and should — analogize it to the Seneca County Prosecutor’s race.
Here follows the OSBA statement:
Message from OSBA President Gary J. Leppla: Attacks on lawyers for doing their jobs have no place in campaigns
Once again the Ohio State Bar Association is compelled to speak out. A candidate for statewide office, an attorney himself, is denigrating an opponent, a fellow attorney, for doing his sworn duty as an officer of the court. This sort of attack is unacceptable.
Yesterday, Ohio Attorney General candidates Richard Cordray and Mike Crites participated in a televised debate. During the debate, candidate Cordray criticized Mr. Crites for representing a state employee who pleaded guilty in 2000 to embezzling $10,000 in public money. Mr. Cordray’s statement contains the suggestion that Mr. Crites did something wrong by representing his client. Nothing could be further from the truth. Attorneys are duty-bound to see that a client’s right to representation in our American legal system is preserved. An attack on an attorney serving clients is an attack upon our American system of justice. This form of political attack is inappropriate.
The citizens of Ohio should not be misled by political attacks on lawyers who carry out their professional duties. Most Americans understand that lawyers are often called upon to take on unpopular causes, to defend those charged even with heinous crimes, to protect the rights of those who would destroy our democracy and to see that justice is available to every defendant. Lawyers have an ethical obligation to provide representation to clients even when they know the cause is unpopular or community reaction might be adverse, and most of our citizens understand and respect that commitment.
In making determinations with regard to what is fair or an unjust criticism of a lawyer, we must keep in mind that, in a democratic society, citizens have a right to make reasonable and fair criticism of public officials, including those running for office. However, they do not have a right to unfairly impugn the integrity of an opponent for exercising his or her professional duties. In our view, Mr. Cordray’s comments go beyond fair criticism.
Joe, you must be a criminal defense attorney. I guess this makes you sleep better at night. Maybe the OSBA thinks that this is wrong but I have a family and I am happy to know it.
Look Joe I am sorry that you feel as though you’re the butt of all those “lawyer jokes” but I sleep better at night knowing the difference between two candidates. Devine’s dealing with what you call “a few” criminal defendant’s in the past might be off limits to the OSBA but I for one think that it is a very prudent nugget of information on Mr. Devine for seneca county voters to consider. I could not, in my right mind, put a man who has fought to keep criminals out of jail into the office of the seneca county prosecuter. Who knows maybe devine defended child molestor and got him a reduced sentence and now he lives in my neighborhood, maybe he defended a drug dealer that is now trying to sell pot to my neices and nephews.
I was wavering before… but your posts against Egbert have actually caused me to vote for him. And you can rest assured that I will find every last person I can in this county to do the same.
to amanaboutTiffintown. Criminal Defense Attorneys are essential to our “presumption of innocence until proven guilty” system of justice in America. I have numerous friends and relatives who work in law enforcement and none would wish for a world in which the charged are not given competent representation in court. Not all people who are accused are actually guilty. If we were to argue that if you ever wish to go anywhere in politics you should never be a defense attorney then what kind of world would we have. Who would ever wish to represent the accused? And given the world we live in where a talented video artist can make us see almost whatever they want us to. If you, sir, were accused of being (citing your examples) a drug dealer or a child molester by circumstancial evidence; you might look very differently on having a Derek Devine coming to your aid. Derek Devine’s experience as a criminal defense attorney is actually excellent preparation for knowing what evidence is needed to put criminals away and how to poke holes in the various defenses used by other criminal defendant lawyers. In a debate it is imperative to be able to argue both sides of the point to know where likely attacks will come from. Our system may not be perfect, but it is the best we can have.
aman – You are free to vote for anyone you want, but I must say you apparently have never read the Constitution, don’t understand history, and don’t have clue how the legal system works.
I am not an attorney, and I don’t like criminals better than anyone else, much less DeVine. However, it doesn’t matter WHO is in the prosecutors office, the accused is 1. innocent until proven guilty and 2. entitled to have representation.
I have read some silly posts, but yours takes the cake. You sound like someone Egbert “helped” and therefore you owe him.
Re:amanabouttiffintown
So, by your reasoning, Mr. Devine should not be elected to the position of prosecutor because of a lot of “maybe” he represented certain clients charged with certain crimes and “maybe” got them off or reduced sentences claims. Have your ever heard of “extenuating circumstances” or “each case must be judged upon its own merit?”
You could have at least taken the time and trouble to see if there are any specific cases you could quote as examples of what you are claiming. This looks to me like the usual internet ploy, “Don’t worry whether it is true or not, if half the people that read it believe it, it was worth it”
I’m sorry, but it doesn’t sound like you have much faith in our legal system or the Constitution and Bill Of Rights.
“amanabouttiffintown” must be “Judge Dredd”
Guilty before proven innocent must be your mantra.
In over twenty years of observing politics in Seneca County, I have never seen such desperation as I do now from the Egbert campaign.
First, he feels the need to lie about his conviction rate. He claims 98 percent and it is nearer to 89. I would actually respect 89 better because 98 tells me he is cherrry picking his cases and avoiding those he considers tough. Kenny, let the jury decide one once in awhile. Also, it’s not good to mislead the voters of this county; they will eventually decide having a desperate and dishonest prosecutor is a bit embarrassing.
Second, running off to the Ohio board of elections because his opponent (who I have never heard of lying about anything) tells some facts about the prosecutor in his campaign material. Then when the Board rules in DeVines favor, Egbert lies again and tells people that he was vindicated.
Finally, the reason he was crying to the Board, his inability to fulfill his duties as the attorney for Seneca County. The $140,000 plus the county spent on outside attorneys fees. Ken, if you can’t practice all the kinds of law that is required of the Prosecutor’s office, go back to law school. I have heard that one of your assistants said that they could have done the job for you but you didn’t want to be shown up. An expensive ego trip.
I don’t know if DeVine would be better but he has the experience and every attorney and Judge in Tiffin and Fostoria seems to be on his side. Guess they would rather work with a prosecutor that keeps his word.
By the way, that was slick the way you got into the parade last weekend. You sure are the politician!
Maybe we would all sleep better at night knowing that we no longer had wasteful trials, knowing that once a person was arrested they were presumed guilty, knowing that the state wouldn’t have to work at all to prove its case since there were no attorneys allowed for defendants.
Funny, but they had such a thing in England, called the Star Chamber. However, this is the United States which has a constitution that has a great thing called the Bill of Rights. Come to think of it, an awful lot of people have died to preserve this union and the constitution under which it operates.
As to criminal defense attorneys “getting people off,” the way I look at it. Good prosecutors and good police work should still be able to make those cases. As to child molesters walking free or living next door, I dare everyone to look up the sheriff’s list and look up the court records for those persons on the list and eventually you might start to notice a pattern of plea deals allowing those same abusers to only do a few years in jails for crimes with life sentences because the aggravating factors are dismissed. You know, those little aggravating factors such as the victim was a child or there was force involved. Remarkably, under this magic, the person can be be convicted of the original charge..ie. rape, and yet not be sentenced to life because the fact that the victim was a child is erased.
By the way, all the talk about the Hatch Act makes me wonder if it applies to a prosecutor using employees of the victims advocates office (funded by federal grants) to do his campaign work?
I hate to monopolize this discussion string, but in terms of some of other great forefathers. You might not know this but, Abraham Lincoln also defended persons against criminal charges, including murder charges. I don’t think he did any prosecutorial work and eventually did pretty good as the chief law enforcement officer for the country.
Re: Thomas Paine
The amount of time a convicted felon ends up serving for a major crime is often another instance where logic and law part company.
Speaking of great forefathers, I’m glad that we can still look to Thomas Paine for some Common Sense.
How about John Adams he defended a few folks, and I heard he was able to find work.
Aman: Remember the old saying:
“There, but for the grace of God, go I.”
Fact: People are wrongly convicted all the time. The advent of DNA testing, and it’s application to old murder/rape cases, has shown just how often that happens. Innocent men are finally found to be innocent, and have been set free.
Somewhere along the line, each of those people were represented by an attorney. Guess what? It’s turning out that, in those cases, the attorneys were RIGHT! It just took time for technology to catch up w/ them….hopefully before the (wo)men they represented were put to death.
On the flip side, guilty persons have also been found not guilty, and set free to commit more crimes against their fellow men. This happens often, too.
It would seem that ALL attorneys are at equal risk of being wrong OR right.There are no perfect attorneys – except in their own minds.
I hope nobody you know or are related to ends up needing representation when they’re accused of a crime. After all, in your view, they don’t DESERVE it! It just might upset your value system a little too much for you to be able to get your head around.
I was in JAG during my eight years in the military and the justice system there was the fairest I have ever seen. There was never a presumption of guilt because the courts-martial members took their roles as a privledge and were always professional. They could empathize with the defendants as fellow service members.
The problem with the system locally is that the prosecutor goes into a trial with the presumtion of guilt at his back. Most people assume that the sherriff and local law enforcement do their jobs and the defendant would not be sitting there without reason. The few times I have seen defendants aquitted, the prosecutor’s act very angrily and petulantly. I have seen them scream at jurists after an aquittal as though the decesion was a personal rebuke.
That is why we need to change the people we have in place as judges and prosecutors from time to time, especially in a small jurisdiction as this. The relationships build between these people over the years and they jeopardize a defendant’s ability to get a fair trial. We need judges who do their jobs objectively and prosecutors who do their jobs zealously but dispasionately. Having them in for lifetime positions threatens our abilities to get fair trials. It is not only time for Egbert to go but also the two lifetime appointee judges as well when their elections come up.
I guess we should just appoint jr prosecutor for life. If having done criminal defense work at some point in your career is a disqualification jr would be most qualified. Who could run against him, the people he hires just out of law school?
Everyone hates attorneys who do criminal work, until they need one. In my opinion experience on both sides of the fence improves the chances that issues will be spotted and justice will result. In an advesarial system both sides need to do their jobs or it simply doesn’t work.
puddintame – not to correct you however, you mentioned the attorneys being right. Actually it isn’t the position of the attorney to decide right or wrong, their position is to ensure the defendant receives their constitutional rights.
medprorecruiter – Thanks for weighing in with your experience. We have the benefit of wonderful people who take the time and effort to attend meetings, and share their lifetimes of experiences to make this blog a great discussion. The SCB has a good reputation, in great part from the people who post like you.
I forgot to add though, that if Egbert loses, he will run against one of our current judges. You think THIS election has been crazy, that one would be brutal. The thought of having Egbert as a judge is frightening.
Scout – correction noted. I guess I was rushing though that post, and didn’t think through clearly what I meant to say.
I guess what I really meant was, the attorneys were right in their decision to accept those cases, and correct in their belief in their clients.
If JOONIER runs for Judge will he point out and criticize Judge Kelbley, Hadacek and I assume many others who were either public defenders or took criminal appointments!
My guess he would go after Kelbley, since he was a defense attorney, as you said. He will say he is soft on criminals. Or Egbert will try to get in with Petro’s group.
Kudos to Medprorecruiter. The great thing about the military system is that Jag officers have to take different sides in the cases. They get to learn what its like to be the defense attorney or the prosecutor. I think that leads to a fairer system.
As to attorneys being right to accept cases. They are actually ethically guided to take all cases. Prosecutors are to act in the interest of justice and defense counsel are to diligently defend their clients. In other words, they are ethically required to test the prosecution case, to challenge the evidence and to get the best result for their client. To do otherwise would be unethical.
One observation. We all love to be law and order but its odd that when Americans recently voted for the top 100 heroes in film (the AFI list) they chose Atticus Finch, the defense attorney from To Kill a Mockingbird.
Moreover, government attorneys always aren’t on the right side of the law. Afterall, didn’t government attorneys on the side of the state argued in favor of racial discrimination laws in the Brown v. Board of education cases?
Senator: Yes, but one would hope that the mind set of the country since that time would make a situation like Brown -v- Bd of Education never happen again.
One can hope, anyway…….
Yes, Petro’s group seems like the perfect landing spot for Joonier. Petro has endorsed Joonier. Petro is either woefully uninformed about Joonier’s unethical attacks, or he too has a lack of ethics and doesn’t believe in the system of justice. I hope it’s the former rather than the latter. Hey Petro: “If you don’t condemn it, then it means you condone it.”
Where does Petro live anyway. Is he a Seneca County voter?
Puddintame, I wish we could say we have left all that horrible stuff behind, but sadly, I am now reading on the internet about how in ohio one man has hung Obama in effigy from a tree and said America will never have a black man as president; a dead bear was dumped on a college campus hooded with Obama campaign signs; etc.
By the way, is everyone aware of how our secretary of state has been terrorized. Her office’s email has been flooded with vicious emails, including death threats; her office is receiving threatening phone calls and apparently she received a suspicious package made to resemble some dangerous product (it turned out to be a hoax.) Ohioans should not tolerate this.
Sen. – are these crackpots who think she supports voter fraud?
I am not surprised about the effigy, but it makes me sick.
Sadly, I believe it is the zealots in one party who actually believe the campaign rhetoric of their party to the extreme. You know, the ones who chant “kill Obama” at rallies. When you play to that audience, you get results like this.
Mr. Lincoln would roll in his grave.
It is possible to be anti Obama without being racist. I wish people on both sides would learn that.
I agree that it’s possible to be anti-Obama without being branded a racist…..just as it’s possible to be anti-Palin without being branded a sexist.
I saw the pictures of the Obama effigy on tv the other night. It makes me disgusted it happened anywhere – it makes me totally NAUSEUS that it happened in OHIO!
The word here is that Jooooonier has been surfing the Net for job opportunities in Louisiana. He says that is the only State in the Union that bases its tenets of law on the Napoleonic Code — GUILTY, until proven INNOCENT.
We wish him well in his new endeavors..
Did you see the TV film from theGerman television station ZDF ? It has a spot in it were a womancan clearly be heard saying I don’t think America is ready for a black president. this film does nothing good for Tiffin
http://www.zdf.de/ZDFmediathek/content/613126?inPopup=true there is a link on another thread
I can only hear part of the sentence. But let’s be honest. People can be racist. I would also say that I would wonder if a woman would get elected.
I can’t speak German, but the images look like we are in a financial crisis here. I would say we are in a financial crisis in our county. If it makes you feel any better, Germany certainly has it’s own problems with racists. In fact, it is a psychological and sociological reality that people are most comfortable with people of their own socio-economic background. Racism, etc. is a world issue. We all must make an effort to get to know people from different faiths, races, etc.
Scout, we are in a financial crisis here. It is funny, and rather sad, Mr. Nutter in a letter to the editor last friday I believe said, in effect that economic development is a buzzword used at election time and that no one has any real answers. I wrote a response to that for the A-T but it hasn’t appeared yet. Imagine that. I am the only candidate that I know of that actually has a real plan of action for confronting these issues. I actually have been advancing it while running for office. I have sent impact presentations to President Marion of T.U. and Dr. Maceo VP of Heidelberg of instituting the SERV program at our universities. For the returning veterans. They seem very excited. As this program was developed by a friend of mine. If we get just 10% of the area veterans to go to Heidelberg and 15% to go to T.U. then 4.3 million dollars (and that is NOT counting tuition and books) will be pumped into our ailing county economy. We would be one of the first colleges setting up such programs. Federal dollars will also come from the DoD. When the Veterans get through our universities with degrees they become eligible for Small Business Administration Grants 3% are mandated to go to veterans right now only .8% are being used by vets. Get them to start businesses here since they are from the area. We can help them get started. The Dept. of Defense must give so many of its contracts to veteran owned businesses. This could be a potent economic engine. That is only one of the plans I have been working on. I would ask that people make informed decisions about who will work for our county and think outside of the box and put their plans into action. Feel free to compare this to any other candidate in my race and see who really has any viable answers to confront our problems.
Seems that the applicable word is: “Schadenfreude.” As everyone knows, we have PROBLEMS here, and there are those beyond our boundaries who are taking delight in our misery.
Hopefully, the SCB polls are on-target and we can clean-house with the prosecutor and commissioner races.
POWER TO THE PEOPLE!
Terry, At first I wasn’t too sure about having you as a Commissioner, but the more I read what you have to say the more I say….GO FOR IT! I think you would be great! We need to clean out the Commissioners Office. Remember they voted out Jimmie Young and Tom Distel because the public didn’t like what they did. Good Luck Terry!
Wondering, I agree as well.
Wondering and Thomas Paine:
Thank you for your comments. I appreciate the support. I have been criticized here for mainly engaging only one of my opponents thus far. Concerning Ms. Stacy, her last name may be familiar to some of you because she is the daughter-in-law of Dale Stacy, a long time republican mainstay, who was commissioner himself for many of the courthouse neglect years.
One of my concerns is that she was not self- motivated enough to run for the position in the primary and had to be asked by the Republican Party to run in the general election when the republican winner dropped out. I have no such lack of motivation. If you look at Ms. Stacy’ resume, you will see that her involvements have strongest ties to Sandusky County. Merely liking one comment she made at the League of Women Voters that, “the buddy system isn’t working” is hardly sufficient reason to vote for her as a candidate. I wonder about my standing if I would have been quoted referring to them as the “double-mint twins”.
The present County Commissioners holding office are what I call “Tiffin-centric”. This is, to an extent, understandable since Tiffin is the County seat. My background has been more related to the Fostoria where my father was a teacher at Emerson Jr. High School. I was active in the Fostoria Footlighters and Hopewell-Loudon school district where I was a student. My focus is county wide.
I feel that it is time that Seneca County gets a commissioner that has the welfare of the City of Fostoria and western Seneca County in mind as well as Tiffin. My ideas for jobs have not overlooked that Fostoria’s access to railroads make it an attractive candidate for location of companies involved in manufacturing, especially in the “green product” areas. If elected I will work diligently to attract new businesses to Seneca County and to avoid losing anymore of the ones that we have.
If Holly Stacy wins, she will be beholden to the Republican Party and have to take the “party line” into consideration when voting as a commissioner. Party politics is the ultimate “buddy system” you will vote like us x% of the time in order to get along. For example, John McCain voted over 90% of the time with George Bush along party lines and Obama did the same in the Democratic Party. If elected, I will be beholden only to you, the voters and what is best for Seneca County. To learn the specifics of a project that I brought to the attention of Heidelberg College and Tiffin University that would help returning veterans while bringing a lot of money into Seneca County, watch for an upcoming article in the Review Times.
Holly Stacy at first glance has an impressive resume’. Probably the most impressive of which is her being the CEO/president of the Sandusky County Chamber of Commerce for over 5 years. Let’s examine this for a second. Has anyone checked to see how Sandusky County is doing right now? I have. Check out the article in the Toledo Blade titled “Sandusky County revenues likely down $1M for ‘08”.
http://www.toledoblade.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20080916/NEWS17/809160263
The following are some of the quotes from the article:
Mr. Thatcher (Commissioner) said the more the county saves this year, the less it will have to cut for 2009.
But he said layoffs are a possibility.
Sandusky County’s budget woes seem to contrast with other area counties, where administrators say sales tax revenues are up so far this year.
Ottawa County officials speculated that their county’s increase in sales tax revenue — up more than $132,000 so far over last year — is, in part, because area residents are sticking closer to home for vacations this summer, making the county’s Put-In-Bay a popular destination.
Wood County Administrator Andrew Kalmar said although his county’s investment revenue is down because of low interest rates, sales tax is up 8 percent and does not yet include figures from the Bass Pro Shop that opened in June.”
I found it surprising that after 5+ years of Holly Stacy’s leadership Sandusky county commerce is not better off. I have heard a lot of rhetoric from her, but very little substance. If she has any concrete ideas, I have yet to hear them.
I also found it interesting that the Sandusky County Chamber of Commerce mission and vision statements.
This is from the Sandusky county chamber’s website (Capitals Emphasis Mine):
http://www.scchamber.org/About/Mission/default.asp
Sandusky county Chamber of Commerce
Our Mission:
To provide quality leadership, information and services throughout Sandusky County
Our Vision:
We aspire to be the recognized leader of business advocacy and an information resource in the areas of agriculture, industry, retail and service. We will work together to foster community partnerships in PROMOTING OUR AREA AS A BETTER PLACE TO WORK, LIVE AND RAISE OUR FAMILIES.
That is remarkably similar to Holly Stacy’s statement on the “about Holly” page http://www.hollystacy.com/About_Holly.asp Under the Family header “The Stacy family believes that SENECA COUNTY IS A GREAT PLACE TO LIVE, WORK AND RAISE A FAMILY”.
Hmmm… Well, at least she re-arranged the order of the words “work” and “live”. Apparently, originality is not her strong suit. This is blatantly the same old canned political jargon that most voters have gotten so annoyed with and are not buying into.
As a final word on qualifications, they are not the end all of skill. Sometimes talented amateurs know a thing or two themselves. This is especially relevant considering the testimony of Alan Greenspan today. He was hailed as a wizard and genius and yet he was wrong about Wall Street and companies abilities to self-regulate (an oxymoron if ever there was) and here we are amidst the rockiest economic times since the great depression.
Joe – thanks for the reference to Judge Dredd, I got a laugh out of that one. And thanks for defending me on the ALL CAPS thing. I didn’t mean to come across harsh or anything to Truth just wanted to point out that all caps was shouting.
I have to throw my two cents in on the lawyer debate here and what a 25 year police veteran feels about it. When I first started my career and would charge someone with either an arrest or traffic ticket and the “defendant” would take ME to court, I took it personal especially if I would lose for whatever reason.
Over the years I got to know many of the lawyers here in town and other than one or two maintain a working friendship with them. I don’t take it personal that the lawyers actually do their job when they attempt to put on a defense for their clients. Actually, it makes me work harder so that I don’t give them any avenues to get their client off. In the end, I usually end up shaking hands with them or eating lunch with them later down the road.
There aren’t enough cops like you, get. The ones who don’t take most things personally (whether they are cops, judges, prosecutors and attorneys) are the most effective. It should be just like the cartoon of the coyote and sheep dog who are friends outside of work, but in between clock-in and clock-out, they work hard against each other. When the day’s over, there is no animosity.
Personally, I think the ones who DO take everything personally are actually very lazy. It’s easier to blame someone else than to accept the reality that they’ve messed up.
Joe – agreed. I have to say I got another laugh at the coyote/sheep dog reference because I actually had the same line of thinking and almost put that in but didn’t think anyone would get it.
The way I look at it is this way; we all do a job, cop, judge, lawyer, factory worker, garbage man, etc. there are good and bad ones. But we shouldn’t have an adverse reaction to them for simply doing their job. And if their job is set up as adversarial to yours, that doesn’t make them the “bad” guy or girl but simply a person doing their job and providing for their family as you are.
I simply can’t fault an attorney for doing their job and getting their client off, whether it is for a technicality, poor paperwork, full moon, or a jury’s whim one way or the other, I chalk it up to try to do better the next time. Now that doesn’t mean I have to like it or want to go in that line of work, but I certainly won’t hold any ill regard towards a lawyer for putting on the defense that they are required to do per their oath just like we are required to do our jobs per our oath.